So, which echo is the best ?

[dave robinson]

Can I just ask Ecca, by using ferric oxide wouldn't that be the equivalent of using recording tape the same as Dick Denny ended up doing ? What I'm thinking is that the great sound that Phil speaks of could possibly be down to the wire wound drum and it's superior qualities over tape or ferric oxide - just a thought. I was discussing with Alan Jackson the other day and speed and quality do go together with recording i.e. , the faster the better.

[Twang46]

All interesting stuff.....
I think I will have a crack at coating a drum with ferric oxide, I've ordered some.
The wire wound as per the Binson looks to be fraught with hazard. For starters it's only .1mm dia.( 4 thousands of an inch approx. ) The winding of that onto a drum poses no problem but the grinding of it does. It would have to be very tightly wrapped and then , assuming you grind it OK you're then left with a wire thickness of approx. .05mm ( 2 thou )

I'm not sure about the drum yet, I don't want to unduly spend much money on something that may not work. It could be made of anything really, only the outer diameter must not be magnetic other than the oxide coating. There must be sufficient mass in order to reduce wow and flutter. I've ordered a direct drive motor from a record player to simplify the rotation of it, ( cheap !) no belts or idler wheels and a flywheel will be included somewhere..

.... and that's as far as I've got.

Ecca
Here's a link to LGK who right at the end of their pages are showing a "rewired" Binson drum

http://www.lgk-teknik.se/images1.html

Could be worthwhile contacting Lars ?

Cheers

Dick.

[ecca]

I would be interested in whether that rewired Binson drum was ground afterwards. I can wind a drum, no problem, it's the grinding that I fear for the reasons already stated.
The reason for ferric oxide coating is that the Meazzi drum was made that way and the Binson drum was wired. If it's a Meazzi emulation that's required then that's the thing to try for me.
Covering the drum with tape was fair enough but it's not what I want to do, it might as well be a tape machine then.

[dave robinson]

I would be interested in whether that rewired Binson drum was ground afterwards. I can wind a drum, no problem, it's the grinding that I fear for the reasons already stated.
The reason for ferric oxide coating is that the Meazzi drum was made that way and the Binson drum was wired. If it's a Meazzi emulation that's required then that's the thing to try for me.
Covering the drum with tape was fair enough but it's not what I want to do, it might as well be a tape machine then.

Sorry Ecca I got my wires crossed, I now understand.

[phil kelly]

Can I just ask Ecca, by using ferric oxide wouldn't that be the equivalent of using recording tape the same as Dick Denny ended up doing ? What I'm thinking is that the great sound that Phil speaks of could possibly be down to the wire wound drum and it's superior qualities over tape or ferric oxide - just a thought. I was discussing with Alan Jackson the other day and speed and quality do go together with recording i.e. , the faster the better.

Just to clarify a couple of points,reputedly the first wheel meazzis had the oxide coated wheel, ( not wire ala binson ) this also not to be confused with a schaller echosound which has the heads a hairs breath away from an oxide coated drum, because if they were not you would instantly strip the oxide and damage the heads, also having had one of these greatly engineered machines this slight gap of the heads from the wheel gives a drop in top end, very warm but not shadows.
My echomatic 1 has a rubber tyre around the wheel circumference, i am not sure but i think the oxide coated wheels may have also had this tyre which was maybe coated / impregnated with oxide , as i understand it unlike the schaller the meazzi heads touched the tyre,this being soft in relation to head contact, but overtime causing the wear of the oxide leading to eventual echo drop out, hence the solution employed by Dick Denny to wrap 1/2 inch recording tape around the wheel.
My machine being 1959 seems to depict that maybe the different echomatic models were made in conjunction with one another , employing both the tape / tyre method as well as some experimentation with machines being fitted with the oxide coated wheels, i do remember being told that SEP continued to experiment for some time with coating the wheels, this being done at the Philips factory, but eventually this being dropped and the changing over to the tape loop machines.
Not entirely sure which of Hanks 3 echomatics had the oxide coating before resorting to winding the tape, i dont think there would be much difference in sound though between the oxide coating and tape wrapped around the wheel, both are pretty much the same.
There is a noticeable difference in sound though as said before between the tape around the wheel echomatic and a tape loop meazzi, in the way each machine records to the tape etc, the method and the speed at which the wheel machine does it, giving off a good frequency responce with none of the saturated tape bloom associated with tape loop models.
Phil.

[ecca]

Hi Phil, can you take any photos of the wheel/heads ?
Are the heads sprung into contact with the drum ? i.e. Is there any light spring pressure or are they solidly mounted.
You being the owner of the only drum Meazzi in the universe, I've tried pals on Mars without success.
Ecca

[Didier]

Are the heads sprung into contact with the drum ? i.e. Is there any light spring pressure or are they solidly mounted.

Heads are mounted on swivelling arms, and pushed againt the drum by light needle springs. So the pressure is not very high, but enough to cause the wear problem.

Fixed heads could be a problem, as a valve unit is likely to get hot, and drum dilatation may occur. On early computers, memory magnetic drum units were used, but dropped in favor of discs because of this problem (on computer discs, heads are floating above the disc surface).

Didier

[ecca]

That's a good picture Didier, thank you.
In thinking about it, it appears as though the ferric oxide coated drum was dropped for good reason - the wear and tear.
Perhaps the tape wound onto a drum will be more practical. What about the joint though ? Might there be a Copicat clunk ?
What do you think ?

[dave robinson]

Looking at the design and hearing of the problems that Hank and Dick Denney endured, I would have thought that if an improved version could have been produced of it's type, then it would have been. The Binson idea with their wire wound wheel may have been a result of the poor results from SEP's ferric oxide coated drum, whilst they themselves switched to tape based machines.

[Pat Seaman]

That's a good picture Didier, thank you.
In thinking about it, it appears as though the ferric oxide coated drum was dropped for good reason - the wear and tear.
Perhaps the tape wound onto a drum will be more practical. What about the joint though ? Might there be a Copicat clunk ?
What do you think ?

The 'Copicat clunk' is easily avoided by using a 45 degree splice...........It only happens when the tape is cut at a right angle, so tape on the drum could surely be spliced in the same way.

Pat.