So, which echo is the best ?

[Didier]

Great thread, thanks to all contributors.
The physical construction of the wheel intrigues me.
The disc itself is no problem, the constantan wire is readily available. the grinding of the outer diameter is do-able but how is the wire wired ?
As one single winding simply wound around the drum and connected end to end........ or what ?

Some details here : http://www.effectrode.com/magnetic-dela ... ry-system/

Didier

[ecca]

Thanks Didier. Teflon coating........... sounds good.
So......... if I could make such a drum and mount it on a plate.......

Where's an Amanda when you want one ?

EDIT
Having said that, there are plenty of turntables on ebay, some with varispeed motors that might well do the job to try the idea out.
Bigger diameter = less wear on coating.

[Patrice]

Hi Phil

For trying to answer your question :
On my two "modified" Binson, I kept (as Didier said) the original wheel (or drum) BECAUSE it's the same "system" of recording/playback than an SEP (F, J or Vox Echo)

Now, and as I tried to explain in my last post :
1) I can't explain why with the same electronics, the "density » and the mix of the four delays composing the final halo of reverb could be different between the one found (got !) on an TAPE Echomatic Meazzi and the one found (got) with a Drum system ?
But if you can compare (and You and I were able to compare and say) SURE it's "different"...

2) The question (for me !) is to know, if the acoustic result (or the transfert curve) between the "coating » of iron oxyde on the SEP drum is similar than the acoustic result obtained with he iron wire wound on the Binson Drum ?
Compare with my tape Echomatic Meazzi the acoustic result I obtain with my modified « Binson / SEP /Vox Echo » (!) is "similar…
Just one more time the density of the halo of reverb is « better » with the drum than with the tape, and "acoustically" very near from the Hank SEP's one.

Nevertheless:
Like on a recording tape, the apparent running speed in front of the heads can also change this result…
Even if the different of the relative « speeds » found on an original SEP/Vox Echo, an Echomatic Meazzi or a Binson are « similar » or « near ».
But you can also understand that it's difficult to say that you can CLONE the response of an original SEP drum with the Binson one ?................
It seems ! Or I think...
But be sure, SINCERELY, that this kind of transformation done on a Binson is more than just (how i can say ?)... a "toy"

3) If somebody would like to transform a PE 603 (T or X) Binson into a Vox Echo i’ll try to give him the informations I know (or I beleive to know ) on this subject .
Keep in mind that, you have FIRST to choose (buy or try to buy...) an (original) TUBES PE 603 (T) Binson model to do this job. Simply BECAUSE the internal volume of a PE 603 permits to wiring with no problem ...and because you can use again its main transformer (6,3V for heating, and HT)
If you chose to do the same from a TUBE Binson Echorec, its inside volume is full like an egg (like we say in France…) and it's not so easy...

Best regards

Patrice

[Bojan]

What a fantastic thread!! Many people have been saying it is a pity Meazzi has stopped making its old tape echoes and some have wondered whether it would be possible today to build a contemporary version of Hank's Meazzi drum echo to the exact original specifications. Listening to the discussions in this thread, it is more than obvious that there are members here whose combined knowledge, experience, and skill could make that a reality. I doubt that anyone else in the world today has such comprehensive knowledge in this area.

[dave robinson]

It is an interesting debate and is throwing up some exciting possibilities and I'll be interested to hear any wheel echo that is available to try, but that said I honestly don't believe that I could sound any better or receive better applause than recently witnessed over the last few months using either the Etap2hw, Catalinbread or Zoom G3x.

Before that on similar shows the ESE Echomatic and Atlantis were used and they too did the business. I play for a living and the attendance and success of a gig relies upon doing the job right, realising peoples expectations particularly on Shadows type gigs as many audience members are critical. I don't think it would benefit me any more if I had Hank's Guitar, Meazzi and Vox, I've recently sat and listened to my understudy get the same sound using his USA '62 reissue Strat, my Vox and his Zoom G71ut and it has been top notch, far closer than Hank achieved on his 2004/5 and 2009 tours. It's so obvious when you hear him that he doesn't want the sound that the punters expect, he actually told Paul Rossiter to turn off the vintage effect on the TVS3. It isn't at all lost, it's there in spades if you set the kit up properly. That doesn't mean I wouldn't embrace the chance to use the exact kit, but I don't think our punters would be any more convinced.

[keithmantle]

It was the rickety old chair it was balanced on that provided the key ingredient, LOL.

[Twang46]

It was the rickety old chair it was balanced on that provided the key ingredient, LOL.

You would be surprised at the effect that the "rickety old chair" type of stand/mounting can have on audio devices

Dick.

[fenderplucker]

Hi,

It has indeed developed into an interesting and informative discussion!

Dave, I think the discussion has split into two themes and what you say about a live performance may well be correct. The perception by the audience is influenced by many things: the overall sound, the venue, the playing style and demeanor of the performer probably all being far more important than the timbre or the halo of the echoes, and provided that the repeat pattern is roughly OK most punters would be quite happy, as you say. However, if you are trying to reproduce the actual sound of The Shadows, particularly the recorded sound (and the assessment can then only be done by direct A-B comparison, not a hazy memory of what it might have sounded like), then those things become very important. That is why I said that the answer to your original question (Which Echo is Best?) depends entirely upon the circumstance.

Phil, your description of the "woody" quality of the echoes of your drum Meazzi is intriguing. Would you be able to post a comparison of your drum and tape machines (maybe just a plucked note)?

Patrice, your observations are very interesting and it would be great if you could post recordings of your modified Binson and a Meazzi tape machine to illustrate the point about the halo, possibly just a few bars of My Resistance is Low?. If Phil could do likewise with his drum Meazzi that would also be interesting and we could compare them all with the original Shadows track. To get the ball rolling I am happy to stick my neck out with an example using the TVS3. This was done with my 2004 Strat (12-52 Elixirs, CS54 pickups) and AC15 clone (normal channel, bright setting, some top cut, Audiom speaker) with no added reverb or equalisation (though the reverb on the high parts of the original track are still there on the backing even though Hank has been almost completely removed). To my ear it is fairly close to the original, though if I wanted to get it even closer I would probably record it again with slightly lower drive level (the lead sound is maybe just slightly too thick?) and use just a small amount of equalisation around the mids.

My Resistance is Low mix5 short.mp3

(553.25 KiB) Downloaded 651 times

Paul.

[dave robinson]

I fully agree with you Paul, that is roughly what I meant about audiences hearing the live sound.
It would be interesting to hear those comparisons you speak of too.

[ecca]

Interesting reading......... but it's all a bit confusing ...........

http://www.first4magnets.com/tech-centre-i61/information-and-articles-i70/flexible-magnet-information-i86/how-are-flexible-magnets-made-i116