So, which echo is the best ?

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Re: So, which echo is the best ?

Postby roger bayliss » 02 Oct 2014, 16:42

I agree an interesting thread. I have heard some very close recordings of Apache and Wonderful Land done by GEGE using the recently available VSTHost Software which uses mostly the eTap software version.

http://shadowmusic.bdme.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=11096

https://app.box.com/s/7v4x58whevjvciy0h29c

Near enough ? If not what is missing here ?

With regard to distortion in the sound such as mentioned by Ecca I would suggest that this is good old fashioned tape saturation/distortion where the engineers used to drive the recordings to tape harder in the early days. Tape is mush better than digital for recording because of how it handles the recording and saturates and distorts nicely too.... that is my opinion though :D
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Re: So, which echo is the best ?

Postby dave robinson » 02 Oct 2014, 16:56

There's a lot of talk of the Meazzi here and I purposely ommitted it because they are not readily available and the ones I have had close encounters with have been dreadful, predominantly distorted. Add to that the tape machines have nothing whatsoever to do with Hank's early sound because his machine was a wheel version rather than a tape one, which has been documented as sounding different by people here who know, so I left it out of the equation.
Allthough the TVS3 has all of those qualities that Paul outlined and I've heard it first hand, I repeat that my experiment was a simple one in as much as I set the sound of the amp and guitar identical for every piece, but just changed the echo box and set it as if I was doing a gig with it - no tweaks to get it like the record, just simple plug and play with no fuss. On the mixer section of the recorder, I set the EQ frequency curve to the same settings as the older recordings and everything else the same too. The result was the guitar tone and mix in the track was as good on every one of them, no matter which echo was employed.
When listening to the guitar tracks alone, I liked something in there that the Catalinbread was adding, though in the mix I felt it was lost. I suspect it could be that 'bigness' that Phil describes.
I'd love to hear Phil's wheel driven Meazzi, as I can imagine there will be a difference. :)
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Re: So, which echo is the best ?

Postby phil kelly » 02 Oct 2014, 17:45

In the early days Like most people i also thought that Hank had used reverb as well as echo, which is kind of true to an extent with perhaps what was added to the whole mix but reputedly he had said he personally didnt use reverb, just echo, the wheel echomatic delivers that reverb that you hear on the recordings, with help i modded my tape echo units over the years to try and get as close as i could to Hanks early sound, but always felt something was missing, it was close but not quite there, i used to much echo at times , if i backed it back a bit i lost some of the big ambience, i remember Bruce telling me sometimes Phil there appears to be "more echo than note " i would explain what i thought was right but now realise what he meant, having listened back to some gigs we did i hear the echo at times almost getting in the way, the wheel machine appears cleaner than the tape with just a bit of wow, echo aside the machines dry sound is righti f you listen to the early hits Hanks echo is more like reverb, a slight ripple of repeats is there but not really prominent till damped, just big reverb,
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Re: So, which echo is the best ?

Postby dave robinson » 02 Oct 2014, 19:13

What you're describing there Phil sounds like a frequency response issue, the tape being inferior to the wheel.When I tried David Martin's Binson there was something magical about the tone of the echo, even though the heads differed to what is required to reproduce the old Shads echoes. I'd be interested in Paul Rossiter's thoughts on this. That said I don't think I would consider any further outlay on an echo machine given I can get what is needed from the kit I have, even though probably not identical to Hank's. I certainly wouldn't gain any more work, applause, credibility or whatever by spending any more, we have all the work we need and fill venues full of happy people, which at the end of the day is why we do it so I'd just be being very self indulgent.
Still nice to chat about it though. :)
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Re: So, which echo is the best ?

Postby ecca » 02 Oct 2014, 19:14

Which machine would Hank have been using on 'Spring is nearly here' ?
Would he have set his own levels between guitar/echo/ amp ?
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Re: So, which echo is the best ?

Postby dave robinson » 02 Oct 2014, 19:22

ecca wrote:Which machine would Hank have been using on 'Spring is nearly here' ?
Would he have set his own levels between guitar/echo/ amp ?


According to the time the album was made it would be the second Meazzi (the Wonderful Land one) :)
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Re: So, which echo is the best ?

Postby phil kelly » 02 Oct 2014, 22:40

I dont think there was a frequency issue Dave, i just think a case of the machine having different characteristics being a tape model, namely the predominant chatter of repeats in comparison to the wheel echo which sounds less bright and more woody, with as i said much more ambient reverb.
On first hearing it compared to the tape machines it appears to have less echo, but it is there all the time , even at a lower setting the reverb is present, where as the tape machines seems to lose their bigness unless wound right up.
Just for interests sake i am pretty sure this machine was indeed used for midnight, it sounds right on the money, and it also has the right echo for apache, this machine is circa 1959 so it makes you wonder whether Hank used it on the apache session, the model f being quite troublesome and this having the better mechanisim than the f, to be later used with the model 2.
A couple of times in early shots of the Shads Hank has two wheel echo units , one on top of the other, the top one is the J , on top of the model 2, both the J and F have the same front panel but it is recognisable as the J by the hard white plastic handle and not the strap type which was fitted to the F, plus you can make out the lid on the cabinet of the J where instead the F was in a case with a removeable metal inspection panel on the top .
All interesting stuff.
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Re: So, which echo is the best ?

Postby Gary Allen » 02 Oct 2014, 23:05

Hi Phil, Are we talking this type of sound ?
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Re: So, which echo is the best ?

Postby GuitarPhil » 03 Oct 2014, 00:04

Great clip. I haven't seen that one before so thanks for posting it Gary. Clearly Hank's sound is different because his Meazzi isn't on its usual chair! ;)

Looks like Bruce is playing a Fender Jazzmaster.
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Video

Postby abstamaria » 03 Oct 2014, 00:37

What an entertaining video. Many thanks, Gary. Yes, Bruce is using a Jazzmaster. Caught my eye too.

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