First Cliff / Shadows recording using a Burns

[StuartD]

Did that Double Six have the Marvin switching or the Split Soundpickups and switching ?

There were various prototypes, including at least one with a Vista-Sonic-type rotary switch, but production models of the D6 had the Marvin-style five-position slide switch. The one Hank used in the film "Wonderful Life" was fitted with a Marvin switch (but that one isn't one of the two shown years later in his guitar collection).

Or indeed on 25th anniversary concerts. That one had a tremolo system fitted. I am sure they used it at the Palladium in Licorice's last appearance. It looked like the red one with the different scratchplate, the one in the shot with his guitar collection and if it was Don't Talk to Him, they would probably have used that, with normal 12 stringing, rather than the guitar/bass version, which Ii think was the original green one.

[Billyboygretsch]

The one in this pic has Split Sonic set up this was probably the one used on that first recording.

[Iain Purdon]

I agree that the Double Six appeared in public before the Marvins. I was talking about unannounced prototypes though. We know that Atlantis and Geronimo were recorded on prototype Marvins back in Dec 1962, so I was wondering whether any Cliff numbers in that period might have also featured them.

[dave robinson]

I agree that the Double Six appeared in public before the Marvins. I was talking about unannounced prototypes though. We know that Atlantis and Geronimo were recorded on prototype Marvins back in Dec 1962, so I was wondering whether any Cliff numbers in that period might have also featured them.

So when did 'we' know for certain that 'Atlantis' & 'Geronimo' were recorded on prototype Mavins' ?
Hank and Licorice told me at different times that they were recorded on Strats', so who has suddenly remembered differently ?

[JimN]

I agree that the Double Six appeared in public before the Marvins. I was talking about unannounced prototypes though. We know that Atlantis and Geronimo were recorded on prototype Marvins back in Dec 1962, so I was wondering whether any Cliff numbers in that period might have also featured them.

So when did 'we' know for certain that 'Atlantis' & 'Geronimo' were recorded on prototype Mavins' ?
Hank and Licorice told me at different times that they were recoeded on Strats', so who has suddenly remembered differently ?

If Licorice remembers the Burns guitars at all (remembering that he left the group before they stopped using Fenders), it has to be from rehearsals and recording sessions. I feel sure that Licorice has said that Atlantis was recorded on a Burns prototype. Maybe the other song as well, since it was recorded at about the same time.

[dave robinson]

I agree that the Double Six appeared in public before the Marvins. I was talking about unannounced prototypes though. We know that Atlantis and Geronimo were recorded on prototype Marvins back in Dec 1962, so I was wondering whether any Cliff numbers in that period might have also featured them.

So when did 'we' know for certain that 'Atlantis' & 'Geronimo' were recorded on prototype Mavins' ?
Hank and Licorice told me at different times that they were recoeded on Strats', so who has suddenly remembered differently ?

If Licorice remembers the Burns guitars at all (remembering that he left the group before they stopped using Fenders), it has to be from rehearsals and recording sessions. I feel sure that Licorice has said that Atlantis was recorded on a Burns prototype. Maybe the other song as well, since it was recorded at about the same time.

I think some people make it up as they go along, Licorice told us it was a Strat, i asked Hank if it was a Burns and his reply was 'Certainly not', but what does he know ?

[Billyboygretsch]

It would seem strange that prototype Marvins were around in 1962 and that they were used on recordings. What hardware would have been employed. Remember the main pickup around this time was the Tri Sonic and Split Sound. The only other was the Black Bison 4 pick up. Would the tremolo be cradle bridge like the Split Sound or the Bison.
It all seems very unlikely

[JimN]

Interesting thread discovered on this very website:

http://shadowmusic.bdme.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=4030

[JimN]

It would seem strange that prototype Marvins were around in 1962 and that they were used on recordings.

Why would that seem strange?

What hardware would have been employed. Remember the main pickup around this time was the Tri Sonic and Split Sound. The only other was the Black Bison 4 pick up. Would the tremolo be cradle bridge like the Split Sound or the Bison.

It has been stated (by Hank, in 1964, which was a time when his memory of the process was crystal clear) that there were about thirty prototypes.

What seems likely is that the first of them used equipment borrowed from other Burns models and that the Rez-o-Tube and Rez-o-Matiks came later. As a matter of fact, this has already been demonstrated, to a limited effect, by a magazine story ten years or so ago, where a "Marvin prototype" was pictured and described. I haven't got access to that story right now, but recall that the bridge/trem was a cradle-type Burns unit (or very similar), that the pickups were the adjustable Bison type and that the headstock was three-per-side, but not yet with the stylised scroll. Not that the Rez-o-Matik pickups were much of an innovation. They're very similar to Fender and Vox pickups of the time. It stikes me that what took the time in development was the bridge and tremolo unit.

Google (not the instrument I was thinking of, but nevertheless interesting):

http://chtiburnsman.e-monsite.com/album/ce-qu-aurai-pu-etre-la-marvin/

It all seems very unlikely

Does it?

How would more than thirty prototypes be tested for evaluation purposes, if not in the context of testing with the group, whether rehearsals, recording sessions or both?

[fenderplucker]

Some discussions never seen to end, Gretsh anyone??!

We have tried matching the sound of many of the tunes from the "changeover" period using both a Strat and a Burns, and the first (in a timeline sense) that couldn't be matched on the Strat was Walkin' (to be posted soon). All others up to then could be matched very closely with the Strat and AC30 TB, often with the bass and treble controls both well up giving a quite nasal sound (and this certainly includes Atlantis and Geronimo). Interestingly, Theme for Young Lovers was recorded at the same session as Walkin' and can be matched very closely with either that Strat or Burns and If I can find time I will post both versions to see which you think was used. After that time (Nov 1963) most tunes seem to have been done on a Burns, though there are still a couple where the Strat seems closer (e.g. Tonight and possibly Brazil?).

Paul.