Cliff's Gibson J200

[dave robinson]

Thanks for that info Phil, it clears up a lot of speculation.

[GoldenStreet]

As to which guitar was used by Bruce in the early days in the studio i'm not 100% sure, he probably used them both. Maybe someone should ask him if they get a chance at this years Shadowmania...
Kind regards
Phil

Interesting stuff, Phil. It would certainly be illuminating to get Bruce's angle on the issue should he have any clear recollections of that period.

Bill

[abstamaria]

Thank you, Phil. That is very interesting. Good to know.

Andy

[abstamaria]

As an incidental note, I was watching the mini-documentary that's in the 2009 boxed set of Beatles CDs and caught a glimpse of Paul McCartney playing a sunburst J200.

Andy

[Phil88]

Hi to all.
Just out of curiosity, did anyone think to ask Bruce at Shadowmania this year about what finish was on the j-200 used on those early recordings? (59-61-ish era)
Would be interested to know if Cliff's wine red top J-200 with the mahogany stain back and sides was used by the Shads in the studio or just the sunburst one.... if any of them can remember hehe.

kind regards

Phil

[Patrice]

Hi all,
Recently registed on this forum I would had some words about the "original" (or one of the original ? Hi Phil !) Cliff's J 200.
In a french magazine called "Télé 7 Jours" issued in 62 (63 ?) we can see (on a full page) a photo of Cliff with his J 200.
And the picture is in colors !..
So it's easy to remark that this J200 is in a "Sunburst" finish (Nothing else...)
As the photo (I have) has been yet "enlarged", it's possible to see the Gibson oval orange label inside.
On this orange label it's just possible to read the last three digits of the serial number (damned !) : "119"
But the first digit shows the letter "A".
So the serial number of this Sunburst J 200 is (or seems to be !) : "A ??119"

In addition to this "clues" are the "tuning keys".
The tuning keys fitted on this J200 are gold plated Grovers.
I would like to say that for the J 200 Gibson production, this kind of tuning keys : "Gold Grovers" are only present during the years : 58, 59, 60 and a part of 61.
Before 58 the tuning keys on the J 200 are : Gold Plated Kluxon Pearl Keystone buttons and after 61 : Kluxon Waffleback Gold Plated Keystone buttons. (No doubt !)
So the Cliff's acoustic guitar describes as a : J 200 Sunburst + open moustache + gold plated Grovers + oval orange label with a serial number beginning by "A", could only be manufactered (hope is correct !) between 1958 and the beginning of 1961.
I red somewhere (?) that this J 200 arrived in England in Mars 60 ?
Phil or someone else can you confirm...
If the guitar arrived in March 60 in England, certainly that this J 200 has been manufactered in 59 in the US.
And if this guitar is (confirmed) from 59, it's serial number is (must be !) "A 29119" or A "30119" or "A 31119"
Who knows ? (Cliff yes !)
For resuming:
For my own I think that THIS 59 Sunburst J 200 (+ open moustache + gold plated Grovers) is (much than may be ?!) the guitar played by Bruce in Apache.
It's also this same J200 that Hank plays in the film The Young Ones (When The Girl in Your Arms..) and it's also this same J200 we can see in Wonderful Life.
And now : the cliff's J200 "Blonde" with gold plated (original) Grovers + open moustache is certainly this original 59 Sunburst refin in Blonde...

Hope that you'll agree with me ?

Amitiés à tous
Patrice (and excuse me for my english mistakes...)

[cockroach]

Your English is a lot better than my French Patrice!!

By the way, what do you call 'anoraks' in French??!!

[Didier]

By the way, what do you call 'anoraks' in French??!!

There is no direct equivalent, it could be translated as obsédés ou maniaques.

Didier

[Phil88]

Hi Patrice I would be interested in seeing the pics in the mag of Cliff with the J200...

There are indeed many pictures of Cliff from 1959 to around about 1970-ish with a sunburst J200 but as i said in earlier comments he doesn't remember ever OWNIING a sunburst one. The one that he personally bought (as he tells it) was ordered new from the Gibson factory sometime in 1959 It had a wine red top with mahogany stained back and sides, with chrome grover tuners. This was the one that he later had sprayed in blonde after a case fell on it on tour and it needed to be repaired. (the one he still has).

I have actually seen this guitar up close and even played it (sorry to boast... ) and I can confirm that it has chrome grover tuners not gold. So the sunburst one with the gold tuners is not the one he had resprayed. The sunburst one is presumably still out there somewhere. I'd like first refusal if anybody finds it!!!

Cliff doesn't really remember the sunburst J200 though he did say that there were always spare guitars kicking around that either belonged to the band or the studio. One of these was probably the sunburst J200 that he played live and in photoshoots in the first decade or so of his career. It was possibly owned by somebody in Cliff's management and they gave it to him to play on tour... or on tv... or for a photoshoot, because they knew he liked the J200. (Though of this I'm not 100% sure) This would also be the same guitar used by Bruce and Hank in the films. And as the guitar was always handy (and as the pictures would sugest) it was probably the one used in the Apache recording session.

It is possible (in fact highly probable) that the two guitars were ordered at the same time...

Cliff vary rarely plays guitar live even now and it was even rarer for him to do so in the early days with The Shadows and he told me that he didn't bother to bring out another guitar when there were several spares around anyway... He would often just borrow a guitar...
It may be noteworthy that once the original Strat was returned to him after Hank and Bruce got their matching pair of rosewood Strats he did not take it on tour with him again until his post Shads spit solo tours. The same -or similar- is probably true of the wine red/mahogany J200.

Anyway hope this cleared up some of your questions Patrice.

All the best

Phil

[Hank2k]

Hi Patrice I would be interested in seeing the pics in the mag of Cliff with the J200...

There are indeed many pictures of Cliff from 1959 to around about 1970-ish with a sunburst J200 but as i said in earlier comments he doesn't remember ever OWNIING a sunburst one. The one that he personally bought (as he tells it) was ordered new from the Gibson factory sometime in 1959 It had a wine red top with mahogany stained back and sides, with chrome grover tuners. This was the one that he later had sprayed in blonde after a case fell on it on tour and it needed to be repaired. (the one he still has).

I have actually seen this guitar up close and even played it (sorry to boast... ) and I can confirm that it has chrome grover tuners not gold. So the sunburst one with the gold tuners is not the one he had resprayed. The sunburst one is presumably still out there somewhere. I'd like first refusal if anybody finds it!!!

Cliff doesn't really remember the sunburst J200 though he did say that there were always spare guitars kicking around that either belonged to the band or the studio. One of these was probably the sunburst J200 that he played live and in photoshoots in the first decade or so of his career. It was possibly owned by somebody in Cliff's management and they gave it to him to play on tour... or on tv... or for a photoshoot, because they knew he liked the J200. (Though of this I'm not 100% sure) This would also be the same guitar used by Bruce and Hank in the films. And as the guitar was always handy (and as the pictures would sugest) it was probably the one used in the Apache recording session.

It is possible (in fact highly probable) that the two guitars were ordered at the same time...

Cliff vary rarely plays guitar live even now and it was even rarer for him to do so in the early days with The Shadows and he told me that he didn't bother to bring out another guitar when there were several spares around anyway... He would often just borrow a guitar...
It may be noteworthy that once the original Strat was returned to him after Hank and Bruce got their matching pair of rosewood Strats he did not take it on tour with him again until his post Shads spit solo tours. The same -or similar- is probably true of the wine red/mahogany J200.

Anyway hope this cleared up some of your questions Patrice.

All the best

Phil

Could be this one

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1958-1959-Gib ... 20cc3831bf