Cliff's Gibson J200

[abstamaria]

Phil, what a great first post!

Thank you very much for that information. It answers a lot of questions. So it was a '59 and had maple sides and back after all, just stained dark like the previous rosewood model. Of course, Cliff would have gotten a new one from the factory.

Andy

[BrianD]

I was under the impression initially that the Gibson J200 that the Shadows used for the Apache and other recording sessions was a sunburst model with rosewood back and sides, not the light all-maple model that our band has been using. Someone noted, however, that Gibson changed over to all-maple in 1947, so Cliff’s J200 must have been all-maple as well.

I was looking today at the “Cliff-at-Apache-recording” photo, which I reposted in the Bass section (in releatuion to Jet Harris’s bass amp), and noted the dark sides of the J200 Cliff is holding. I looked a bit and found this photo of young Bruce, which I think confirms that indeed their J200 was a sunburst model. And suggests it was a pre-1947 model at that!

Bruce J200.jpg

Best,

Andy

I am intrigued by the reference to pre-'47 built J-200s as having rosewood back and sides. I note on Guitar Village's web-site the product description for the Gibson SJ-200 TV True Vintage http://www.guitar-village.co.uk/product ... SJ2TPVSGH1)%2c+New%2c+Vintage+Sunburst%2c+Inc.+Case which states this model is based on Gibson’s original Super Jumbo as it first appeared in 1937 but then says it has •AAA flame maple back and sides.

I also note that this model sells for £3449. On the same site the "modern version" - Gibson J-200 Standard (SJ22VSGH1), New, Vintage Sunburst, Inc. Case http://www.guitar-village.co.uk/product ... (SJ22VSGH1)%2c+New%2c+Vintage+Sunburst%2c+Inc.+Case is only £2699. Note that this latter less expensive model includes •Fishman Ellipse Aura Pickup System whereas the more expensive "True Vintage" model has no pick-up system. Has anyone ever compared these to see what the justification is for the £1000 difference between these two models?

Brian

[JimN]

I am intrigued by the reference to pre-'47 built J-200s as having rosewood back and sides. I note on Guitar Village's web-site the product description for the Gibson SJ-200 TV True Vintage http://www.guitar-village.co.uk/product ... SJ2TPVSGH1)%2c+New%2c+Vintage+Sunburst%2c+Inc.+Case which states this model is based on Gibson’s original Super Jumbo as it first appeared in 1937 but then says it has •AAA flame maple back and sides.

I also note that this model sells for £3449. On the same site the "modern version" - Gibson J-200 Standard (SJ22VSGH1), New, Vintage Sunburst, Inc. Case http://www.guitar-village.co.uk/product ... (SJ22VSGH1)%2c+New%2c+Vintage+Sunburst%2c+Inc.+Case is only £2699. Note that this latter less expensive model includes •Fishman Ellipse Aura Pickup System whereas the more expensive "True Vintage" model has no pick-up system. Has anyone ever compared these to see what the justification is for the £1000 difference between these two models?
Brian

Not a lot of obvious difference except for the pickup and the wood quality. The main (but not sole) visual distinction is between the Grovers on the "standard" model and the Gibson-branded copies of Klusons on the vintage-correct model. There is also extra inlay-work on the dearer guitar, especially down the bookmatch joint on the back. I saw one at NAMM in January. I can't say that I felt any great desire for the True Vintage model, though the Klusons do look better, in the same way as they look better than Grovers on the ES-335.

There may be some detail difference on the bridge. If I recall correctly, some moustache bridges have more MOP.

I'll.... go and check...

The "cheaper" model has two areas of MOP. The more expensive one has four, and the bridge pins (and holes) are laid out slightly differently.

Incidentally, I don't know about this "wine red" Cliff Richard J200 story. The sunburst one was used by (and is pictured in the hands of) Bruce many times, both in monochrome and in colour. It was also seen in the possession of Cliff himself, notably in the 1966 Billy Graham period. There is no pictorial record of a wine red Gibson, though the Shadows did also have access to a blond model. The story must have been jumbled somewhere.

JN

[BrianD]

Thanks for the response Jim. Yes there are a numbedr os subtle visual differences between the models I referred to but I am interested to hear if anyone has done any level of comparison on the sound qualities and playability of the two models to see if you can hear or feel the added value (or not) of the more expensive version. I would hope that there is some!

[Phil88]

Hey Jim

Check out the video link in my post about Cliff's J-200 you will see him playing the wine red one... here's another couple of vids just to confirm there definately was one.

http://youtu.be/dFzP27lbvzU

skip to 3 mins in to where he start's playing it. Unless you want to watch the whole thing of course!!!

http://youtu.be/bwzm40HZFKQ

This one if you skip to 6 mins in you will see him playing it at home. I RECOMEND YOU DEFINATELY SKIP THE BEGINNING OF THIS ONE AS IT'S BORING AS HELL!!! hehe

It can actually be seen in the background behind Cliff in the vid of his set at the Royal Variety Performance of 73. I think he probably has simply forgotten the sunburst one. When I asked about it he said it was probably a spare that was brought on tour and the like while his personal one stayed at home. He very rarely played guitar with the Shads so he may not have thought it worth bringing his along when he could just borrow one. In the late 60s/early 70 he started playing alot more live so probably decided to use his red/mahogany one. He's obviously very fond of the guitar as it was one of the very few that he kept when he sold several a few years ago and he still plays it today. How ironic that he should finally decide to take it out after 10 years or so of having it and not long after it gets damaged!!!
I'd love to know what happened to the sunburst one, and who owned it... Maybe someone should ask bruce at shadowmania this year if they get the chance....hehe

Anyway let me know what you think of the vids...

Phil

[rogera]

Phil that first link that you've just given shows Cliff playing a sunburst J200.

In the 2nd link it's more difficult to be sure.

[George Geddes]

Worth it to see Hank with the green 'Marvin'; Dave Richmond on bass and Alan Hawkshaw on piano!

George

[JimN]

http://youtu.be/dFzP27lbvzU

http://youtu.be/bwzm40HZFKQ

Anyway let me know what you think of the vids...
Phil

They're just two different guitars.

The sunburst of the original can be seen clearly at:





Then, as the icing on the cake, try this one for size!



JN

[AlanMcKillop]

I can vouch for Cliff playing a Wine coloured J-200. In addition to having several DVD's of him playing the guitar, I saw it in the flesh in 1971 when Cliff and The Maranatha Choir (I was one of the backing instrumentalists) played a Tear Fund concert in the Kelvin Hall, Glasgow. Still have his autograph from that concert.

[JimN]

I have seen the wine red J-200 before. I associate it with the BBC TV show era of the early 1970s.

But it's not the guitar he had around 1960, that's all.

JN