Who owns it..Hank or Bruce?? read on ..

[cockroach]

Hi Paul,

Yes, I am probably wrong about the Dallas Tuxedo- which was probably first sold most likely about 1958/59- at 17 and a half guineas? So was it Jim Burns in 1952 who built the first British solid body guitar? Come on- give us a quick preview of your article!

I saw a YouTube video clip of you with your guitar collection- I was amazed that you had not only a Stratosphere double -neck, but also a Bigsby solid...serious stuff!

(oops, I'm gonna get bollocked again for wandering off and taking over this thread!)

So, to cover myself and briefly return to the original subject, I would guess that possession is 9/10ths of the law, and postulate that if Cliff ever said to Bruce 'Give me back my guitar - NOW!', Bruce would probably thump him....

[dusty fretz]

Hi John,
The first mention of the single-pickup Tuxedo is a Dallas ad announcing its launch in the April 25th 1959 Melody Maker. The two-pickup version was added in the July 22nd issue and first mention of the partner bass was in the December 5th edition. The first mention of the earliest versions of the Rapier are in the company's ad in the July 16th 1960 issue. Charlie Watkins has often said the Tuxedo beat his Rapier by a mere three weeks to claim the crown for first British-build solid electric, but he states this all happened in 1957, which I now know to be way adrift! Both were actually beaten by a brand that does indeed have Jim Burns connections and the fresh facts I've recently uncovered reveal he was more of a pioneer than even I thought. I'm not giving any more away, you'll have to wait for the article!

Just a quick mention to say that the Bigsby's long gone and the Stratosphere's up for grabs - interested?

I humbly apologise for derailing this thread to such an extent! To do my bit towards restoring order, may I say I find it rather odd that Bruce has ended up owning/playing/claiming a guitar with such iconic Hank associations. Surely any battle for custody of this particular baby should really be between Mr. Marvin and Mr. Richard?

[cockroach]

Paul,

Do you mean those recently discovered prototypes designed and built by Jim Burns? Either way, it was decades after the Yanks- Rickenbacker (or Rickenbacher back then) sold solid body electrics in the mid- 1930's- with normal Spanish necks for regular playing, as well as square steel guitar necks- including that monster on the stand, with electro-mechanical vibrato built into the device...

Sorry, as much as I admire that Jimmy Bryant beast, I probably couldn't afford the Strat(osphere)!!

Back on the thread, I thought Hank gave the maple neck Strat back to Cliff when he got his new rosewood fingerboard job...Cliff allegedly GAVE it to Bruce in the '70's...or maybe he only meant to lend it? Which might probably not be the way Bruce remembers things....!!!

[dusty fretz]

Hi John,
Those early Supersounds are certainly a key factor, but the story that's since emerged is much more comprehensive and convoluted, hence the need for an in-depth overview of all events and instruments etc.

As you say, Britain lagged way behind America in terms of electric guitars. At the time the scene was struggling to get off the ground in the UK, across the big pond players had long been enjoying the fruits of Fender's labours, along with those of Gibson and a myriad other makers. In 1958 there was still little demand for such solidbody six-strings in this country, so anyone deciding to offer home-grown examples had to be more than a mite mad! These early offerings were undoubtedly primitive, but they embodied a real sense of pioneering spirit that matched the mood of the era. For this alone they warrant recognition and regard in keeping with their historical importance.

Returning to the subject of a certain red six-string, Hank obviously acted the obedient employee, dutifully returning his first Fender to the boss after he'd acquired one of his own. Quite why Bruce later wanted the original is a little odd, as HE was the Shadow who had a major issue with Strats in the '60s!

[AlanMcKillop]

Before Bruce acquired it in the mid 70's for services rendered to Cliff (getting him back in the charts), it was used by John Farrar during the M. W. & F. period.

[RayL]

In 1958 there was still little demand for such solidbody six-strings in this country, so anyone deciding to offer home-grown examples had to be more than a mite mad!

Hey, Paul, I'd take issue with that statement! 1958 was the year when the 'Chirping Crickets' album came out with Buddy's sunburst strat on the sleeve. It was also the time when skiffle guitarists were becoming rock'n'roll guitarists (including a couple of guys from Newcastle's Railroaders who decided to try and make their fortune in London!). For anyone who was a teenage guitarist (or wished they could be) a solid guitar was rock'n'roll - those f-hole acoustics were for squares! It wasn't the demand that was lacking - it was the supply!

Ray

[dusty fretz]

Hi Ray,
To be more accurate, I should've said "At the start of 1958, there was comparatively little demand for such solidbody six-strings ...", mainly because many guitarists weren't aware of or even cared about such beasts! This may not have seemed the case to some young, restive and rebellious would-be rockers, but in actuality their desired tools of the new trade made up a very small part of the guitar market here. That situation altered during the year, as modern music styles shifted rapidly from acoustic skiffle to electrified rock & roll, although catering for the change often meant simply screwing on a pickup, rather than purchasing an instrument purpose-built for the job. The Crickets' album obviously made quite an impression, although it could be argued that the cover shot created similar interest in the equally unobtainable Gibson ES-225TD, as numerous strummers still liked to stick with acoustic-electrics, 'square' status or otherwise. This preference was especially prevalent among pro players, most of whom hated the new noise. The fact that these musicians were actually the target market for Jim Burns' early air-less efforts made the latter all the braver. At £66, the Supersound Ike Isaacs model was far from cheap for the time, so it certainly wasn't intended to be a beginner box.

I agree that solidbodies were scarce during 1958, but this was something of a chicken and egg situation, with interest not yet considered great enough to warrant much attention product-wise. That position changed radically early in 1959, as influences first felt the previous year began to affect the market in earnest. This was when many embryonic axe heroes acquired their initial solidbody electrics, because demand grew and the quantity (if not quality) of imported examples accordingly increased dramatically, with more ads appearing for appropriate Antorias, Hofners etc., while various UK brands also jumped on the bandwagon.

[Didier]

Returning to the subject of a certain red six-string, Hank obviously acted the obedient employee, dutifully returning his first Fender to the boss after he'd acquired one of his own.

When Hank and Bruce got the Strats with rosewood neck in 1961, they didn't buy them, they were lent by JMI who had just become Fender distributor for UK, the same they were lent their Vox amps...
BTW, in december 1980, when Hank bought a 1958 fiesta red Strat with maple neck (nearly identical to Cliff's one) from Patrice Bastien in Paris for 14,000 FF, he didn't pay himself. The guitar was later paid by Polydor Records (as told by Patrice himself).

Didier

[dusty fretz]

As I said, Hank 'acquired one of his own', not 'bought', which would've been a bit stingy on the part of Jennings, who were already well aware of the value of artist endorsements. Hank's freebie/loaner was obviously a bit special, because in the book 'The Shadows By Themselves' he describes it as having an ebony fingerboard, so presumably Jennings must've found him one with a smoother than usual length of rosewood!

By the way, Jennings first ad to feature Fender guitars appeared in July 1960, this being about a year after the import embargo on US goods had officially been lifted by the British Board Of Trade.

[Phil88]

I know the answer to this question.
As told by Cliff himself.
Bruce asked Cliff if he could borrow 34346 in the mid 70s. He just never gave it back!! And he doesn't plan to any time soon. Cliff is actually the owner of the guitar still as he paid the bill and he didn't actually say Bruce could keep it. But Cliff being the nice guy he is has said he doesn't mind Bruce having it for now so long as he gets it back at some point. Like if Bruce decides he has no need for it... or if he dies first!! hehe