Which rhythm guitar for "Raggy Tramline"?

[abstamaria]

On another thread, there was an off-topic discussion (started by me, unfortunately) on which guitar Bruce used on “Tales of a Raggy Tramline.” It is one of the very few early Shadows pieces where Bruce did not use an acoustic.

I read that Bruce used a Jazzmaster on the piece somewhere, probably in the previous Shadows forum, and accepted that as gospel truth for many years. Listening to the sound, it seemed to make sense. JimN suggests it probably was the JMI-supplied Stratocaster, and he’s right, I think.

The “Out of the Shadows” Wikipedia link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out_of_the_Shadows) lists Gibson guitars and a red Stratocaster for rhythm. The date after the piece is December 19, 1961; I am not sure if that is the recording date.

By the way, there was a fun post here (http://www.shadowmusic.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1211) on “Raggy Tramline”; no conclusion about the guitar used except that it was out of tune. An interesting thread.
“Sticking out like a sore thumb and cringe-worthy, Bruce's guitar is horribly out of tune in his 1st & 2nd strings (haven't I read somewhere that BW is paranoid about tuning?). If you've got good ears, Hank Bruce and bass are slightly out of tune from each other”.

I am no longer able to verify the source of my information that Bruce used a Jazzmaster, and so have started this thread, hoping to invite comments and tie this issue down.

Many thanks, and regards,

Andy

[shadows_guitarist]

I haven't heard about Bruce using the Jazzmaster on that record, though I remember reading back on the old forum that Hank probably used the original Strat, which I find more likely to have happened (that middle pickup bark the 34346 had is quite evident there). The matching red Fenders are known to have arrived March/April 1961 but I think they were used mainly on stage as their whole idea was plain advertising. They had to look flashy so any wear was undesirable. And we all know what happens to a nitro finished guitar even after short but excessive usage. That's why I support the idea that the matching set was used at least for a while only on stage and the old Fenders for recording/rehearsals, etc. There are numeral interviews where Hank and Bruce both state the matching guitars were acquired in late 61 but we know this is not true so they probably meant the matching guitars were first used on recording then (memory could be quite misleading after all these years ). So Bruce probably used the fiesta red rosewood Strat on that recording, though he might as well have used his Gretsch or even the Jazzmaster he had previously sold to a Hunters' member. After all, back then fellow guitarists would borrow guitars when in need. Same goes for Hank - it's not impossible for him to have played the 34346 on the record.

[GoldenStreet]

No wonder then. I must confess I never heard those off notes. Must put on headphones.

By the way, there was a fun post here (http://www.shadowmusic.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1211) on “Raggy Tramline”; no conclusion about the guitar used except that it was out of tune. An interesting thread.

“Sticking out like a sore thumb and cringe-worthy, Bruce's guitar is horribly out of tune in his 1st & 2nd strings (haven't I read somewhere that BW is paranoid about tuning?). If you've got good ears, Hank Bruce and bass are slightly out of tune from each other”.

y

Can't say that since purchasing the original mono copy of Out Of The Shadows I have noticed, through normal listening, any real problem in terms of tuning on the track (or tramline!). But then, such perceived imperfections, when detected with the benefit of today's technology, could well apply to any number of recordings from the period.

The same December 1961 session also produced Stars Fell On Stockton, a number with an entirely different sound to my ears, but does this recording also feature issues with Bruce's tuning - indeed, was he playing the same guitar as on Tramline? Both are still great tracks, whatever.

My all time favourite Hank/Bruce twin electric guitar track is Shotgun (recorded 5/9/60), on which Bruce could well have played the Jazzmaster.

Bill

[JimN]

You know... the rhythm guitar sound on Tales Of A Raggy Tramline is a pretty generic two-pickups-on-together sound (not available on a standard Stratocaster), which is probably what led to the supposition that it was the Jazzmaster. But Bruce's sunburst Jazzmaster had been sold well before December 1961.

Nevertheless, Bruce still had a two-pickup electric: his orange Grestch 26120, which he had used on TV on 31/12/1960 and wpould use again for the filming of the club scene for "Summer Holiday".

I could believe that as a Gretsch sound easily enough.

JN

[shadows_guitarist]

My all time favourite Hank/Bruce twin electric guitar track is Shotgun (recorded 5/9/60), on which Bruce could well have played the Jazzmaster.

Mine too. Judging by the twang Bruce's guitar had it must've been the Jazzmaster. My other favourite is Shadoogie but he probably used a Strat on that.

You know... the rhythm guitar sound on Tales Of A Raggy Tramline is a pretty generic two-pickups-on-together sound (not available on a standard Stratocaster), which is probably what led to the supposition that it was the Jazzmaster.
JN

I don't know, I got a pretty decent tone of Bruce's sound on my Strat with the middle pickup, but if it's not the rosewood neck Strat he was playing, then it must've been the Gretsch.

[cockroach]

I've found that using a Strat middle pickup with bass and treble turned up on the amp (and little or no middle if there is knob for that on the amp) will come pretty close to the sound of neck and bridge pickups on together- Buddy Holly got that sound often..

(Mr Fender apparently didn't like the sound of two pickups on together- early Teles did NOT have the setting with two on together in the 'middle' switch position, and the early Strats had three position switches only until much later.)

I'd guess Bruce probably used his red rosewood Strat on that track?

[Bill Bowley]

Long before the 5 position Strat switch was available anyone with a Strat in the early '60's could 'jiggle' the switch to the half way positions and did so quite often, so I don't see where the 3 or 5 position Strat switching is relevent in this thread.