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This is a question I am repeatedly asked and the fact is there isn't a straight answer.
I have recently made recordings with four different machines of various cost. The ESE Echomatic IV at £1200 - the Zoom G3X at £130 - the Catalinbread Echorec Pedal at £180 and the Etap2hw valve job at £200. I have stuff saved from when I had the TVS3 at £2500 - Magigicstomp at £199 - Quad GT at £175
- Q2 at £750 - Q20 don't know the price, Copicats', Binson Echorec, Dynacord, Zoom G7 1uT, Zoom 2200 - - - - the list goes on.

The blatant truth is that all of these are good at delivering the correct patterns, many of them programmed by Charlie Hall, but some were let down by the input signal spoiling the guitar dynamics.

What I discovered with my latest batch was they were all spot on with the echoes and the amp too was as good as you can get. I had people around who play and are passionate about the music and none of them were prepared to guess which was which as they were that close. So you're listening to the same track played by me using the same amp, same settings and four different echo machines and they are identical, then comparing them with recordings made a few years ago with the earlier kit, we still found that there was little to choose between them, even the fabulous TVS3.

So you will ask how is it that a £130 Zoom can sound so close to the best ? The only solution is, and everybody who was here agreed it was down to how the kit was used and the player getting the best from it. Ecca argued it was 100% the player and although you do need some gear to make the noise, I reckon if HBM himself came here and did the same test for us he would prove that to be true. The moral of the story - think before spending a fortune.

I agree with that Dave and have been thinking about it for some time.

Where the recorded sound is concerned I would say Saturation/dynamics and EQ and amplifier are more important as well as the player. The echos are important to some extent and so long as the levels are right and the multi-tap pattern correct and say a good tape sim is used.

The tests you did on the Strat, Burns and G&L S500 also prove a point they are all fairly close.

It is of course the sum of all things that makes the final result and a good ear for matching sounds.

Anyway we all found out a lot on this happy journey to find That Sound and in recent years we finally had some results that were pretty close to the record.

Last night at the Southend club we had 3 rigs,

Laney vc30 with magicstomp or zoom 508.

Vox ac30cc2 with q2

Pinnacle with meazzi factotum

Quite a cross section to choose from. After hearing different players with different guitars (fenders, burns, squires and some other random variants) I can honestly say it was very mixed. Every rig sounded more or less the same and after wasting lots of money on various bits of kit echo machines, amps, guitars even strings and pickups at the end of day it doesn't matters, a rough sound on any piece of kit played well will be good

In fairness, a lot of the equipment currently available was not available back in the day (late 80's early 90's for me) and as such, it is difficult to give a definitive answer to the question when comparing gear available to us over the last 25 years.

The echo I first used (forget the old Copicats) was a Deluxe Memory Man, which gave simple Binson type echoes, but when you have nothing else, it sounded great and the punters also loved the sound. It was only through the advent of EFTP that we could get something close to what the real echoes sounded like. I started at the Qaud + and also had a Quad GT, Q2, Q20, Zoom 508, Zoom 2000, Zoom 2200, Digitech RP21 (I think) & Magicstomp, all EFTP programmed. I also had an ESE, Amtech Age Pro (& Age 1), Atlantis, Marshall Echohead and don't forget the Session Acetone. When I look at that list, I baulk at what I've spent and I hasten to add, that if the TVS came out a bit earlier, I'm sure I would have bought one as well. Of the aforementioned, I particularly liked the Quad GT, Magicstomp and Atlantis.

I currently have a valve Eccamatic, Catalinbread Echorec and a Zoom G3X which will now do me until I depart this scene of time. Amplifier wise, I have an AC4TV, AC15TV Heritage and a Fender SuperChamp XD and I can get a decent sound out of any combination of these 3 echoes and 3 amps. I bought most of my stuff on the cheap (2nd Hand), largely because of reviews and Robbo's sound files, which gave a good indication of how a particular unit sounded.

My Zoom cost me £100 and the Vox AC4 £90 and when I think of the £'000's that I've spent on the journey, I would never have thought that such a small outlay would result in the sounds which can be produced for under £200.

I still haven't answered the question, but I've narrowed down the choice.

I think that sums it up Alan, I don't believe there is a 'best' as all these units do the job. As Roger said it's been a wonderful journey and has generated a lot of excitement and debate. I too have spent quite a considerable sum of money on all of these pieces of kit that passed through my hands and I should have mentioned the Atlantis, as it's a terrific piece of kit and I've had two of those. The reason for selling was because of it's sheer size, it's a shame it couldn't have been put in a small box like the Etap2hw, I would have kept it had that been the case. As I write there is a rehearsal taking place in my studio and I have the Etap2hw set up through the Boogie and it sounds lovely. Damion is using my Vox AC30/4 with his Zoom G71uT and a USA '62 Vintage re-issue and sounds absolutely authentic - I never heard a Zoom G7 sound so damn good. Alan Jones is down there doing his stuff and I feel as though I ought to buy a ticket. I've popped back in the house to do my exercises the hospital gave me to do.
Anyway it's all good debate and if one person gets some good advice and saves a fortune then I'm very pleased for them. I firmly believe that the most modestly priced fear available will do the job as long as the player puts in the time.

I've listened to Hank play Apache live on TV/radio/clubs/theatres etc etc not once have i heard him get the 'Gallup' part exactly like the original recording ??.

keithmantle wrote:I've listened to Hank play Apache live on TV/radio/clubs/theatres etc etc not once have i heard him get the 'Gallup' part exactly like the original recording ??.

With respect Keith I think that might be down to your hearing, I've heard it every time I've seen him as he alway nails it. I don't really want an argument but I'd be interested to hear what others think.

My first echo was a Watkins Copical and I loved it. My splicing wasn't very good and the click irritated me. I now have the Eccamatic Catalinbread Alesis Gt and echoes on my Boss and Line 6 pedal boards. My favourite is Catalinbread mainly through ease of use. Not fond of the GT use the tap echoes on the Boss as convenient. Trying to use the Eccamatic and get used to controls. Still might get a Copicat. Although I love Shadows numbers I am not overly worried on getting the exact sound of Hank and on some of the numbers prefer the sound of the echoes I have created. I guess whatever takes your fancy. I have to say I really like some cover versions of Shadows music most of which are not copies

dave robinson wrote:

keithmantle wrote:I've listened to Hank play Apache live on TV/radio/clubs/theatres etc etc not once have i heard him get the 'Gallup' part exactly like the original recording ??.

With respect Keith I think that might be down to your hearing, I've heard it every time I've seen him as he alway nails it. I don't really want an argument but I'd be interested to hear what others think.

Everyone knows how bad my hearing is and i'll be the first to apologise regarding (original recording) and i don't argue anymore lifes too short , all the best .