So, which echo is the best ?

[fenderplucker]

Hello Everyone,

Sorry I have been out of the loop for a couple of days, my wife and I went to a superb classical music concert at one of the wineries in the SW of the state.


A couple of comments:

Happy Birthday used an Echomatic 2. There are clear echoes at about 110, 200, 280 and 360 mSec, with feedback from head 4. While the model F has echoes close to these at 120, 280 and 360, the one at 200 is missing.

I don't think there was any Meazzi echo used on Theme From Shane (though Hank may have used one just as a preamp, but there is a lot of characteristic Abbey Road reverb. I say this because the spectral analysis shows no discernible echoes whatsoever, though there is evidence of an echo at about 20mSec that would probably have been the reverb pre-delay achieved with a tape machine.

All of the Shadows echoes on the TVS3 have delays and amplitudes measured from the original recordings and so match the wheel Meazzi machines. Furthermore, while the initial calibration of the tone shaping, compression and distortion was based upon measurements from a number of tape Meazzis, it was then refined to match the sounds on the original (wheel) recordings. Compared to the ESE for example, the TVS3 echoes do sound quite "woody", as mentioned above by Phil in relation to his wheel machine. I would of course jump at the chance to have Phil run some test signals through his wheel unit when it is refurbished to see how close the TVS3 is.

The circuits of the various model Meazzis (both wheel and tape) have subtle differences that result in different frequency responses for both the dry and record/replay signal paths. Broadly speaking, the models J and F have more bass in the dry signal path, but less bass in the echo channel than the Echomatic 2. However, at least with the tape units, there were often deviations from the published circuits.

Paul.

[Patrice]

Hi all,

I don’t write very often on this site (sorry…) mainly because my english is too poor for explaining exactly what I want to say !

But anyway:

Didier spoke about the two Binson PE 603 T that I modified (for my self and for having a spare on stage…) into two SEP/Vox Echo Echomatic 2, Echomatic 2 used by Hank since the recording of Kon Tiki in late January 61.

For my own, I prefer to speak about an SEP machine than a Meazzi one, because M.Palomba IS the creator of these « Drum Echomatic » (F, J, Vox Echo).

As Didier said, and to try to do (if possible…) a clone of this drum SEP/Vox Echo/Echomatic 2, I used the system of the « Binson drum ».

Then I replaced the entire original Binson electronic by the SEP one (thank you Amanda for the schematics) moved the heads at the right places (to obtain the right times of the four delays of the Vox Echo…) and respect its feedback system...

After these modifications, I’m TOTALLY agreed with Phil (Kelly).
The « drum system » is different than a Tape system…
And you can’t imagine how Hank was a lucky man to have the possibility to use these drum SEP machines since early 1960…
Why ?:

As I own also an original Echomatic Meazzi working with a tape and because SEP designed this echo box for Meazzi, and due to this reason the (tube) schematic between an SEP/Vox Echo and an Echomatic Meazzi is (nearly…) the SAME, if you move the heads on the Meazzi (like did Phil) and respect how works the feedback it’s easy to compare the « acoustic » result between the two systems…

The MAIN difference comes from the « halo of reverb » generated between the Drum and Tape.
With the drum system as soon as you play « open notes » the mix of the four delays brings you a « constant » and nothing else than a large density of halo of reverb…

With a tape Echomatic Meazzi and playing the same « open notes », if the halo of reverb color is « good » and similar, you always hear the four delays each one after each one… Like a Tac tac tac tac + reverb and NEVER only a « reverb ».
For hearing this "difference" in an original Shadows tune, listen again to « My resistance Is Low »…
In this tune, and if an studio reverb (with pre delay) is added just during the muted notes after this sequences the « REVERB » you can hear during all the song is ONLY (or mainly ! with the natural reverb in the studio 2) due to the drum system of the SEP/Vox Echo.
And the worst thing ! is to think that the « color » of the reverb generated by this SEP echo box is EXACTLY what you have to get… and what Hank got...
It’s why Hank was (MORE) than very lucky to have the possibilities to use this SEP since early 1960…

So If some of you are « strong enough » (!) to modify a PE 603 Binson into a SEP/Vox Echo, DON’T HESIT TO DO THE TRANSFORMATION…
If you can hear one time and one day (like Phil ) the acoustic result of this kind of machine you just will say : This is that » !

To be totally « honest » the only thing between the Binson drum and the SEP Drum (with its oxyde coating) should be to know if the « recording transfer response » between the two drum systems is the same or very similar ?
I can just speak about a drum Binson modified, because like the majority of you, I never saw, tested or heard an original SEP… (Bravo Phil !)

Kind regards

Patrice

[neil2726]

I always thought the best echo (like everything else in life) is the one you cant afford!

[abstamaria]

Thank you, Paul,Patrice, all who took the trouble to write and explain. All very interesting and enlightening.

Andy

[phil kelly]

Yes , all interesting stuff, thanks to both paul and patrice, couple of questions for Patrice , does the binson still have the wire round the wheel or have you replaced it with magnetic tape ? also have you used the binson heads ?
its very hard to find out any info on the wheel echomatics, or any of the other meazzis for that matter,
Phil.

[ecca]

Great thread, thanks to all contributors.
The physical construction of the wheel intrigues me.
The disc itself is no problem, the constantan wire is readily available. the grinding of the outer diameter is do-able but how is the wire wired ?
As one single winding simply wound around the drum and connected end to end........ or what ?

[dave robinson]

Great thread, thanks to all contributors.
The physical construction of the wheel intrigues me.
The disc itself is no problem, the constantan wire is readily available. the grinding of the outer diameter is do-able but how is the wire wired ?
As one single winding simply wound around the drum and connected end to end........ or what ?

That sounds like a question for Alan Jackson Ecca, I'll give him a bell.

[ecca]

In investigating further and noting that the Meazzi drums had an iron oxide coating as opposed to the Binson drum that had a wire layer I see that magnetic paints are readily available these days.
Now there's a thought.......

[Didier]

Yes , all interesting stuff, thanks to both paul and patrice, couple of questions for Patrice , does the binson still have the wire round the wheel or have you replaced it with magnetic tape ? also have you used the binson heads ?

As far as I know, Patrice has kept the original Binson drum with the magnetic wire, and also kept the heads, only modifying spacing.

Didier

[Didier]

In investigating further and noting that the Meazzi drums had an iron oxide coating as opposed to the Binson drum that had a wire layer I see that magnetic paints are readily available these days.
Now there's a thought.......

And some teflon coating could be added to reduce wear...

Didier