So, which echo is the best ?

[dave robinson]

Thanks Phil for explaining a little more, I look forward to hearing you use the Meazzi at some point.
From my point of view this thread has been successful as it has has got us all interested in echoes again. That can't be a bad thing.

[phil kelly]

Hi Gary,
yes, that is the model J that Hank is using, even at a lower echo level you can hear the reverb from it, there is another good clip on you tube of nine times out of 10 where you can hear it, this time the echo level is set a bit more prominant,

Hi Dave, i agree its good to talk echos, with me having had a bit of time out as it were from playing due to my health and with the wheel echomatics arrival i have had time to relisten to things which is always positive, having had and enjoyed many a conversation with Alan Jackson in the past who is not only a nice guy but as you and i both know is a minefield of information where echo is concerned and has been very helpful to me when tuning my tape meazzis in the past , i remember him describing the differences between the tape and wheel meazzi echo units, of which i have now been lucky enough to hear for myself.
With the tape based units you get a saturated bloom and this coupled with the wow and flutter of the mechanics of the machine leads to a very different sound to what the wheel delivers, the wheel when fitted with a good tape has virtually no distortion, and i think about what Hank described once where he said it was interesting as the wheel didnt rotate consistantly which gave a slight pitch variation, that coupled with the inherent ambient reverb of the machine is the sound you hear on Apache or any of those other early tunes for that matter, that decaying after the notes ,
I do hope to be out doing some gigs with this in the near future where hopefully you can hear for yourself and have a go through it, i think you would like it,
Phil.

[dave robinson]

Well you know that it's been a major gripe of mine that all the enthusiasm in the past over the tape Meazzi machines has been mis-placed because it wasn't the tape version that produced the Holy Grail tone that we like so much.
If we can now hear the real deal it will put all of that to bed for good and if there are people out there who can do it, maybe there will one day be an analogue or digital piece of kit that will deliver. Maybe Charlie's new unit would nail it after all, in which case I would show an interest. Maybe it's something already out that would give us the magic ingredient, who knows until we hear the real deal? After all, Paul managed to nail the tape version with his TVS3, perhaps if he heard yours he could do it again, exciting times .

[Didier]

What you're describing there Phil sounds like a frequency response issue, the tape being inferior to the wheel.When I tried David Martin's Binson there was something magical about the tone of the echo, even though the heads differed to what is required to reproduce the old Shads echoes.

The frequency issue is mainly a problem of tape (or drum) speed, but there is a major difference between the Binson and Meazzi circuits. The Binson uses pre-emphasis/de-emphasis for recording/playback as most analog tape recorders do, but the Meazzi doesn't, and has less treble response. When Patrice Bastien made his Meazzi clone from a Binson, he totally rewired it according to the Meazzi schematics, and of course also altered the heads spacing accordingly. I have already heard it, and it sounds well. Patrice doesn't use his Q20 anymore...

Didier

[Didier]

In the early days Like most people i also thought that Hank had used reverb as well as echo.

On many interviews Hank said that in the early years he never used any other effect than his echo unit, so no reverb device. But of course on records, sound engineer Malcolm Addey often used to add some from the Abbey Road famous reverb chamber.
When I saw the Shadows at the Paris Olympia in 1961, Hank only had his echo box and an AC30 (not miked), the sound was very close to what can be heard on the "Kingston" recording.

Didier

[ecca]

But the drum didn't do Wonderful Land.........

[dave robinson]

I tire of hearing that Hank said he didn't used reverb. The fact is that when you made records back then you used your own gear to get the sound you think was required, then the engineer and producer would add what the hell they liked and you would have to accept it. There is reverb on most of the Cliff & Shadows final mixes and it does make a difference. Because he says HE didn't use reverb it doesn't mean it wasn't added when he'd gone home. I agree with what Didier said about the Kingston recording. To add to that, listen to the recordings made before the Meazzi showed up and you can hear a very pleasing sound that could be mistaken for his later to be had echo machine. That was done with studio equipment.

[Tab]

Interesting thread this.

I'm no sound engineer and I don't understand the technical stuff but for me the definitive 'that sound' is that produced by Hank on the 'Happy Birthday' track on '21 Today' which was recorded in July '61 - was that the model F or model J ?

In any event I can get very close with my TVS3 through a Fender Super Champ amp.

Keep the comments coming.

[dave robinson]

But the drum didn't do Wonderful Land.........

Really ?

[dave robinson]

I agree to an extent Tab but that isn't the sound Phil's referring to regarding Apache. The TVS3 has the tonal sound but the echo sound is more of the tape design rather than the wheel, which is why I didn't keep it. Had it been a clone of the wheel version I would have. I've been criticised more than enough for saying this, but the tape Meazzi wasn't what it was, it was the wheel version and I have said many times in these discussions it hast to be 'what it is' to compare fairly. It's a different sound. Lately I've looked at it all again and like Phil have been listening and re-visiting some of the tracks. Although not 100% sound-wise I'm satisfied that with what's available I can get the best out of what we have to do the job, which is all you can hope for unless you come across the real deal, as Phil seemingly has but sadly at a time when we're on the way down as the interest is nowhere near what it was ten years ago. Nowadays it's personal satisfaction more than anything.